Latin 415A - Fall 2006
For each week of the course, all students should submit at least one question or observation relevant to our study of Latin Lyric Poetry. Alternatively, some of these weekly contributions may consist of responding to the questions and observations of others in the class.
Kyle's Notes and Analyses
Important: Please Begin each of your questions, observations, and responses with your first name. For a model, see my comment under Week 1:
1. Week 1 - 8/21 - 8/25
Stephanus -- I'm looking forward to reading Catullus and Horace with my students this semester.
JamesMaximus - I figured it out!!! (AKA James "Maximus" Reed)
BriAnne- me too!
Ashley- Whoo! I'm so excited!
Dustin - I got it
Colleen - I finally figured it out
Kyle - Colors are cool
Grotto of Catullus
1. 1. Student's questions and comments on Catullus 5
Kyle - I don't know how esse(l. 13) is supposed to be used.
Colleen - It's present infinitive active, and it's part of the negative purpose clause. I'm having trouble finding the meaning of assis(l. 3).
James - assis means "penny" or "coin".
"sciat" (l. 13) is present active subjunctive, but not in 1st person, can it still be horatory?
Kyle - To add to James' comment, an as is more specifically a coin of very little worth, and I thought that sciat(l. 13) was a subjunctive verb in a temporal clause starting with cum(l.13).
Stephanus - A good thought, Kyle, but would a temporal cum-clause take the subjunctive?
Kyle - I think I figured it out. I think esse is the verb in an indirect statement initiated by sciat.
Ashley- I'm having a problem making sense out of line 6 (I'll just play the resident clueless fool- you guys all sound so smart). I want to say, "night is one perpetual sleep," but that doesn't really take into account dormienda as a gerundive. Perpetua modifies dormienda, but I'm unclear where the una fits in. Does any of that make sense?
Kyle - I say make dormienda part of your main verb. It's separated from est.
Dustin - Is tantum being used as a correlative pair in line 13. If so I don't remember what it goes with.
2. Week 2 - 8/28 - 8/31
A note from Stephanus about formatting in our Latin wiki:It's a good idea to format text in Latin as italics. Here's an example of how to do this:
//haec sunt verba latina//
It will look like this: haec sunt verba latina
2. 1. Carmen Catulli 7
Colleen - In the notes on carmen 7, basiationes are referred to as "mock-pompous kissifications." Can anyone think of an appropriate English term for such things? My Latin-English dictionaries all use the terms "kiss, kissing, kissification."
Kyle - I think it may be just a noun for the act of kissing. My question is what part the two quams play in lines 3 and 7?
BriAnne - I remember learning something in high school latin about quam being used to set up a comparison with comparitve adjective. maybe this is something like that?
quam at lines 8 and 7 is correlative with tam at line 9. Stephanus
James - I can't bring any light to the quam situtation, but I can tell you that transitive verbs confuse me, just like the one in line 11 pernumerare.
Kyle - Pernumerare is an infinitive in the relative purpose clause. Its object is an implied basia.
James - Kyle, you impress me, young padiwan. That is, if you are correct.
Ashley- I'm having a problem making sense of lines 3-4. Is it asking how much North African sand and Cyrene silphium is between the temple and tomb, or how much sand is between the silphium and the temple? And what is silphium (that's the word the notes used)? Or do I have this completely wrong?
Dustin - I am having trouble with this too. I think that it is saying how many kisses were shared at these spots. I think it may be how great a number were on sandy Libya lying in the siliphium, but that could be wrong. I still don't know how to translate the second part of this.
Ashley and Dustin - This is the old How do I love thee? Let me count the ways theme. Catullus asks how many kisses from Lesbia are enough for him. He answers his own question, saying he wants as many kisses from her as there are grains of sand between Jupiter's oracle and the tomb of Battus. This is a desert area, so a lot of sand, right? Then he compares the number of kisses he wants from her to the number of stars in the sky; in this image he works in the notion of secret loves (remember his relationship with Lesbia is an adulterous one).
2. 2. Carmen Catulli 10
Ashley- I'm having a terrible time with the vocabulary in this one (among other things), particularly, aere (ln. 8), illic (ln. 14), comparasti (ln. 15), beatiorem (ln. 17), and mala (ln. 19).
Ashley, here's some help: aere is abl. sg. of aes, aeris, n., used in line 8 as means with profuisset.
illic (line 14) is just an adverb modifying natum esse.
comparasti (line 15) is a syncopated perfect (act. ind. 2s) = comparavisti.
beatiorem (line 17) is a comparative adjective (masc. acc. sg.) that functions as an object complement with me in the same line.
mala (line 19) is an adjective (fem. nom. sg.) modifying provincia.
Gaius Valerius Catullus
3. Week 3 - 9/4 - 9/8
3. 1. Catullus 12
Kyle - Is lintea neglegentiorum(l. 3) a transferred epithet? If it's not, I don't see how a linen cloth can be careless.
Colleen - I don't know if this is correct, but I translated neglegentiorum as a comparitive adverb. I used "rather" instead of "more" to make the comparitive clear. However, my only basis for doing so was that it made more sense than the napkins being careless.
rather is good for the comparative, but neglegentiorum isn't an adverb; it's an adjective. GENITIVE PLURAL. So Catullus is talking about napkins of rather careless folks.
Ashley- I gather that uteris in ln. 2 means use, but I can't figure out what word it actually comes from. Also, I found a translation that said that leporum in ln. 8, pertained to "charm", or lepidus, but I don't get how the first word has anything to do with the second.
uteris is pres. pass. ind. 2s from utor, uti, usus sum. leporum (line 8) is genitive plural of lepor, leporis, m. Pollio, Asinius' brother, is a boy stuffed full of charms and wit.
3. 2. Catullus 13
Dustin: I am having difficulty trying to figure out what attuleris means on line 4.attuleris is fut. pft. act. ind. 2s of adfero. It stands in a future more vivid condition.
Ashley- I'm having trouble with suavius in ln. 10.
Dustin, I think attuleris is the future perfect of adfero (or something similar), making it mean "you will bring." Right on, Dustin!
Dustin: I think suavis is a comparative adjective that comes from suavis meaning agreeable, pleasent. I don't understand what Garrison means by a breezy wave of the hand though.
Right again, Dustin. suavius, like elegantius in the same line, is comparative adjective. Garrison is talking about the tone of these two comparative adjectives. The poet says "in return you'll get meros amores," and then with a breezy gesture of the hand, he says, "or if there is anything more pleasant or more elegant ... (supply I'll give it to you)."
4. Week 4 - 9/11 - 9/15
4. 1. Catullus 16
James: I'm trying to figure out what tum denique means in line 7. Garrison's notes say "in the last anaylsis", but I still can figure it out. denique means "finally" or "at the end" but still I'm not sure how it fits in with the poem.Ashley: I just took it to mean that "finally" after all the naughtiness of the content, his poems still have wit and charm.
Also, relating this poem to last Thursday, I think that this poem is a further example of Catullus' straightforwardness in his poetry. If he had meant for Carmen 13 to be sexual, he would have clearly written it that way.
4. 2. Catullus 21
Colleen: I'm confused on how to translate ...simul es, iocaris una.... The notes suggest that it has something to do with being together and joking, but I'm trying to think of a truer-to-Latin translation.Kyle - I don't know about Colleen's question yet, but I have one of my own. I couldn't find anything when I tried to figure out what harum(l. 2) meant. Does anyone know what that is and what it's doing there?
BriAnne - I had the same question as Kyle. This word isn't in any dictionary or glossary...
James - I looked up harum and think its a form of hic, haec, hoc. The Genative plural, fem. of the pronoun.
Right, James. harum is gen. pl. fem. of hic, haec, hoc. It refers to esuritionum (line 1).
Ashley: How does quare fit into line 12?
Dustin: quare is an ablative form of qua re it is a relative adv. meaning for what reason. He is telling Aurilius to quit and giving him reason for quitting by threating sexual humiliation.
quare (line 12) comes about, as Dustin says, from qua re, where qua is, strickly speaking, a conjunctive relative. So we could translate fairly literally "for which reason," i.e. "for this reason" or "therefore."
4. 3. Catullus 23
Ashley: I can't seem to find a meaning for silicem in ln. 4 anywhere.
James: I think i might have found a translation of silicem , "stone, pebble, flint" And I'm having some trouble with Nec mirum in line 7.
Dustin: I'm not certain about nec mirum. mirus is an adjective that means extradionary or remarkable and nec means and not. I think it may be saying is your health not wonderful. He then follows it up talking about his general health.
Colleen: James, Garrison makes a note on nec mirum in his Notes. I think it means something like "no wonder".
Kyle: I didn't have many questions, but I did think it was neat that snot was thought to be evil, as though people expelled evil when they sneezed.
5. Week 5 - 9/18 - 9/22
5. 1. Obscenity in Catullus
5. 1. 1. Reckford 1996
Students' responses to Reckford 19965. 2. Catullus 24
James - I see in line 4, mallem which is imperfect, active, subjunctive and then dedisses which is pluperfect active subjunctive. But I forget what use that is.BriAnne - I had a problem with that too, the only thing I could think to do with it would be to treat it kind of like an indirect statement, "I would prefer that you give up...." Its probably called something else,(not an indirect statement) but I think thats the right translation...
Close, BriAnne. This is an example of indirect command. ut is omitted after mallem.
5. 3. Catullus 25
James - I'm having trouble with lines 10 - 12. laneum and latusculum go together and manusque and mollicellas go together. But I'm having trouble even finding a subject for the lines.Kyle: The subject for that line is flagella. It's kinda tough because the subject is all the way at the end of the sentence.
5. 4. Catullus 26
Kyle: Am I right in thinking that flatus(l. 2) applies to all four winds?
Yes.
5. 5. Catullus 45
James - I think I found a correlative pair! In line 5, quantum ? Could this be right?Also I'm having trouble finding a good translation of medullis. Line 16
BriAnne - Yeah, James, I think quantum is the lonely half of a correlative pair! Congrats on that. And with the help of Perseus, I understand medullis as representing Acme's innermost being or something. Soul, even?
Kyle - I don't think that quantum is part of a correlative pair. I think that it plays the parts of an interrogative. Because ni appears in the clause before, "as much as" just doesn't make sense to me. I think the point he is trying to get at is something like "if I don't love you however much, then how much do I love you." But that's just me and what I got from the Latin and notes.
Ashley: What is the purpose of ore (ln. 13)?
Colleen - Oh no! I was excited, because I thought I had spotted the lonely half of a correlative quantum (Line 5), but Kyle's analysis has caused me to waver. However, I do think that ore (Line 13) is an ablative of means, describing how something has been kissed.
Yes, ore is ablative of means with suaviata.
Dustin: Does anyone know how to translate tosta in line 6?
5. 6. Catullus 50
James - Subjunctive warning. I see subjunctive in lines 9 and 10. There is an ut but what is the use of subjunctive called? iuvaret and tegeret. Both imperfect active subjunctive.
The subjunctives at 45.9 and 45.10 are in result clauses.
And I think I found a congnat accusative in line 17 meum dolorem . But I am not sure why perspiceres is also in the subjunctive in the same line.
BriAnne - This poem is chock-full of weird subjunctives, actually. I'm not sure about the first two you mentioned, James, but I think perspiceres is just a regular potential subjunctive, "From which you might thoroughly appreciate my pain." I could also be way off though, because it isn't in a main clause. But I don't think that meum dolorem is a cognate accusative, I think it's just a direct object. Again, I could be way off.
BriAnne, you're pretty close to the mark. Your translation for ex quo perspiceres meum dolorem (50.17) sounds good, but the type of subjunctive clause is relative clause of purpose. And meum dolorem is, as you say, just a direct object.
Colleen - I agree with Brianne. The subjunctives are present in full force in this poem. I'm in need of a review, though, so that's good.
Ashley- I don't get how facetiisque in ln. 9 "restates the point of lusimus and delicatos" as per Garrison's notes.
Dustin- facetiae is a noun which means cleverness or wit. lusimus refers to the light verses and delicatos is a comparative that means luxury or pleasure. I think that he is saying that the spirit of the moment came from the wit of the pleasent light verses.
Colleen, delicatos (50.3) is just an adjective. The context isn't particularly easy to see. convenerat is used impersonally, though its grammatical subject is an infinitive clause (understood nos) as subject of esse and delicatos as subject complement. Translate line 3: as it had been agreed that we would be elegant
Catullus' Grotto - Sirmione
6. Week 6 - 9/25 - 9/29
6. 1. Catullus 22
Colleen - I have two concerns here. In tantum abhorret ac mutat (Line 11), I'm not sure what the subject of the clause is. Secondly, poema (Line 16) is in the nominative case, but a poem does not write; it is written.
Kyle - While poema looks as though it could be nominative, neuter words look the same in the nominative and accusative cases. I submit that it is a neuter, singular, accustaive noun that is the object of scribit.
Yes, poema (line 16) is direct object of scribit.
James - Good submit my friend Kyle. I too have a question. versus in line 3 is 4th declension, thus I am unsure of its use in the poem.
versus (line 3) is accusative plural, modified by plurimos, and is d.o. of facit.
Also to your question in line 11 tantum abhorret ac mutat I believe that it is the "Suffenus" that the verbs are referring too. And now I pose another question, is tantum a correlative pair? Remember it's usually the relative member of a correlative pair that is left out.
tantum (line 11) is an adverbial accusative modifying abhorret and mutat.
6. 2. Catullus 34
James - Line 9 montium domina ut fores I think that is some kind of subjunctive clause, not sure what it is though.
Purpose!
6. 3. Catullus 41
Ashley- I can't find a meaning for poposcit in ln. 2.
Dustin- I couldn't either but I think that it means charged from Garrison's notes in the back. In line 5 how do you translate propinqui.
Kyle - Poposcit comes from posco, meaning "to demand." Also, propinqui is a vocative, plural meaing "relatives."
7. Week 7 - 10/2 - 10/6
7. 1. Catullus 39
James - The long listing of peoples from around Europe ( around lines 11 to 13) ut is used a lot and I see that the list starts off with esses which is subjunctive, so what kind of subjunctive clause is it?
There's only one ut in lines 13-15, right? ut meos quoque attingam (line 13) is a purpose clause, inserted as an aside, i.e. a parenthetical comment. Here's the barebones structure of the sentence that begins at line 11 -
Si urbanus esses aut Sabinus aut Tiburs aut Umber aut Etruscus aut Lanuvinus aut Transpadanus, (ut ... attingam,) aut quilubet ...,
tamen ... nollem.
Doesn't this look like a CONDITIONAL SENTENCE? What kind of condition is it? (For a concise discussion of the CLASSIFICATION OF CONDITIONS, see Allen & Greenough sections 513-514.)
James - Also the last line (21) bibisse praedicet loti, is that a indirect statement? Indirect statement uses subjunctive, right?
There is an indirect statement in line 21, but be careful. Indirect statement is a non-finite clause, specifically an infinitive clause with the subject in the accusative.
7. 2. Catullus 55
Ashley- Catullus seems to have this fixation with knowing every little thing about his friends' love lives. It seems like he would have been better off taking the point from the girl's response in ln. 12. She was sassy.7. 3. Catullus 59
7. 3. 1. Nappa 1999
Students' Comments on Nappa, Christopher. 1999. "Catullus 59: Rufa among the Graves." Classical Philology 94.3:329-335NB. Students' comments on the Nappa 1999 article should be posted on the page linked to just above.
7. 4. Catullus 56
Ashley- what is the purpose of hunc in ln 6? I can't seem to make it fit in anywhere.
The pronoun (= "him") refers to the pupulum (line 5).
7. 5. Catullus 58
Ashley- Is quam in ln. 3 comparative rather than relative? comparativeAlso, if glubit in ln. 5 is implying what I think it's implying, that is some fantastic (yet sort of disturbing) imagery right there.
We're not sure what you think glubit is implying unless you tell us, but you seem to be alert to some imagery that is, in fact, at work here. We can be guided by Adams' famous manual.
Adams, J. N. 1982. The Latin Sexual Vocabulary. Baltimore.
Points Adams makes about glubo -
- The verb evokes an agricultural implement (Adams 1982:24).
- Catullus uses glubo ('skin, peel off bark') as a metaphor for the act of retracting the foreskin (by intercourse or masturbation?) (Adams 1982:74).
- "The metaphor of the stripping of the bark (= 'foreskin' ...) might in principle have been applied to the 'stripping' of the mentula by whatever means, whether by manual, oral or vaginal stimulation." (Adams 1982:168)
Ashley- that's actually exactly what I thought it was implying, but I didn't want to come out and say it earlier for fear that I was completely wrong and you all would think that I was a sick, sick individual.
this is an insertion.
7. 6. Catullus 44
Kyle - Those double datives in lines 2 and 3 are kind of tricky. I know they're there, but trying to translate them is so awkward. Does anyone have a good English equivalent for them?
Colleen - Sorry, Kyle. My translation of lines 2 and 3 sounds very awkward, too. I was wondering if anyone knew how es ulta is used in line 17.
Kyle - Es ulta should really be ulta es, and it is the 2nd person, singular, perfect form of the deponent verb ulciscor.
James - Garrison says that fui libenter is idoimatic. What does that mean?
I like this definition - An idiom is an expression whose meaning is something different from the sum of the meanings of its constituent parts. So we would interpret fui libenter component by component as "I was willingly ...", but the actual meaning of the expression is more like "I was happy to be ...." Does this help?
8. Week 8 - 10/9 - 10/11
8. 1. Catullus 69
James - Line 3 labefactes is another present active subjunctive. Garrison translates it as "if you should undermine", but again I don't know the name of that construction. present subjunctive in the protasis of a condition signals Future Less Vivid.In line 3 and 4 vestis and lapidis are in the GEN case, but I'm not sure why. vestis is genitive with munere. lapidis is genitive with deliciis.
Kyle - Why is cubet (l. 8) subjunctive? relative clause of characteristic
8. 2. Catullus 70
James - I'm having trouble with trying to scan this poem. Its in Elegiac couplets, but I keep running out of syllables. I tried to do the first couplet but it was not working out. And Dr. Clark, do we need to specify the anceps? In the elegiac couplet, the last syllable of each line is assumed to be anceps, i.e. it doesn't matter whether that syllable is naturally long or short. As for the scansion, I can't know what problem you're having until I see how you've tried to scan the couplet. Here's how the first couplet goes (I'm using l for long and s for short) -l l l l l s s l s s l s s l x (no elisions)
l s s l l l l s s l s s x (no elisions)
8. 3. Catullus 72
Dustin: I have been unable to translate generos in line 5. gener, generi, m. = son-in-law8. 4. Catullus 74
James - The last lines (lines 5 and 6), irrumet and faciet are both in the present active subjunctive. I know their meanings, but am not sure of the construction again. irrumet is present subjunctive in a quamvis clause, which takes the subjunctive. See Allen and Greenough section 527 a. and e. faciet is future indicative in an independent clause.8. 5. Catullus 75
James - Line 3, there are three present subjunctives queat, facias and fias with ut...si and nec...si, I forget what kind of construction that is. Can anyone help me out? ut ... queat - result clause. si ... fias is in the protasis of a future less vivid condition. si facias is again in the protasis of a future less vivid condition.
9. Week 9 - 10/16 - 10/20
9. 1. Horace, Odes 1.5
Colleen - I was confused by Garrison's note on 1.5.9. He calls the two epithets a compendious expression. Are we supposed to translate te credulus aurea as Garrison suggests, credens te auream esse?
James - Colleen, I'm not entirely sure, but I think translating credens te auream esse as "believing that you are golden" fits in the poem. Even though it does seem that there is a conjunction missing.
Good questions and comments, Colleen and James. Garrison's suggestion is his interpretation. The expression fruitur te credulus aurea more literally interpreted means something like "in his credulity (i.e. gullibility) he enjoys you (as if you were) golden."
And I am confused with the last few lines of the poem. I'm not seeing how suspendisse is being used in line 14. suspendisse is infinitive of indirect statement (with subject me) depending on indicat.
9. 2. Horace, Odes 1.19
Colleen - Does anyone know who the subject of veniet (line 16) is? I couldn't tell if Horace was referring to Venus or Glycera.
James - I too am having trouble translating that last line. I'm pretty sure that veniet is referring to Venus, but I still am unsure of how to translate the last clause.
Strictly speaking, Venus is subject of veniet, but by extension Horace also means Glycera. When Venus comes, so will Glycera.
Kyle - I don't have any line-specific questions, but seems like Horace is harder than Catullus. Maybe it's just a different writing style. an observation made by many!
Dustin - I am unsure for urit in the dictionary says a desiderivitive for urio. I don't know what that means. A good question to research. What is a desiderative verb? simply a verb whose form indicates a wish to do the action denoted in the stem. What Dustin has found is a suffix -urio, -ire attached to the stem of a supine and indicating the wish to do something. E.g. to the supine stem of ceno, cenare, cenavi, cenatum we add -urio to get CENATURIO = I WISH TO DINE.
Ashley- Dustin, I think it comes from uro- to burn.
The last line in the poem, has veniet and thats subjunctive. Does anyone know why?
9. 3. Horace, Odes 1.23
Ashley- I can't figure out what word vano (ln. 3) modifies. I thought it was ablative, but I could be wrong. If it is, does it go with montibus (ln 2)?Also, Garrison's note about frangere in ln. 10 says it is an infinitive of purpose. Is purpose not supposed to take the subjunctive? A dirty little secret - Sometimes the poets use an infinitive to express purpose. Classical prose usage would express purpose with ut or ne and the subjunctive, as Ashley says.
Kyle - I think vano goes with metu.
9. 4. Questions/Comments on HC for 19 Oct (scansion of Odes 1.19.13-16)
Kyle - On line 13, I have an extra syllable at the end of the line. Am I supposed to have that, or have I maybe done something wrong? On the line, I have this: l l l s s l s x
What you're missing is the elision between the last two syllables (tem hic). The intervocalic "m" at word boundary falls out and the "e" elides with hic.
Dustin- I like how Horace makes the comparison of the woman to the baby fawn. I think this is interesting because it deals with the ideas of independence and truly experiencing life. I just thought that was neat.
10. Week 10 - 10/23 - 10/27
10. 1. Horace, Odes 1.1
Colleen - This poem was longer than other ones that we have translated, but I related to it a lot. Sometimes I think I would be happiest if I led a simple life and had much time to think. my sentiments exactly!
10. 1. 1. Musurillo 1962
Students' responses to Musurillo, Herbert. 1962. "The Poet's Apotheosis: Horace, Odes 1.1." TAPA 93:230-239.10. 2. Horace, Odes 1.11
Kyle - Is temptaris(l. 3) a shortened form of temptaveris, a perfect subjunctive? It makes sense to me because it would be parallel to quaesieris(l. 1). Yes, temptaris, like quaesieris, is a syncopated form.
BriAnne - Kyle, I just finished 1.11 and that makes sense to me. And did you figure out the pumice thing from earlier? I think he's just trying to say how soft the cliffs are. Is everyone comfortable with the imagery here after our class discussion? i.e. The winter weakens the sea by pounding it against the rocks on or near the shore.
Also, I'm a little unsure about the scansion of Leuconoe. I understand that the whole word is one choriamb, but which set of vowels is the diphthong and which do you pronounce separately? Okay, so actually my question is more about pronunciation than scansion, but y'all know what I mean... You certainly put your finger on the issue here; in fact, scansion and pronunciation are always inter-related. Modern editors use the umlaut (two dots above a vowel) to show that the vowels don't coalesce into a single sound, which would be a diphthong.
And this is my last question, I sware. (swear) In line 4, is hiemes two syllables or three? I've always pronounced it as two, but then I run out of syllables before the meter is finished. So my only guess is that the i and the e are NOT a diphthong, as I previously thought?
Kyle - Eus are diphthongs, but ies are not.
James - So the frist two verbs are subjunctive, do we know why?
And in line 2, is they "y" in Babylonios considered a vowel? yes
Kyle - Garrison says they're subjunctive because they're prohibitions, or something like that. exactly like that
BriAnne - Garrison says the subjunctive verbs are a poetic prohibition. Silly poets... Yes, Trix are for kids, right?
Ashley- I was thinking of those as like negative purpose, is that the same as a prohibition? negative purpose would not be the same as a prohibition.
Colleen - I counted the "y" in Babylonios as a vowel, but that I was a little unsure of the line. I was also surprised by Garrison's prohibition comment. Maybe it's that polite way of telling someone not to do something that I think Dr. Clark has mentioned before. See you all soon! absolutely right about the use of the 2nd person subjunctive as a polite command or prohibition.
10. 3. Horace, Odes 1.
Taking Colleen's advice, I've recalled the English word related to Greek nous. It's paranoia!10. 4. Horace, Odes 1.10
Kyle - How is minaci(l. 10) used? It modifies voce (line 11).
Ashley- Are decorae and palaestrae (lns. 3 & 4) genitive? Because otherwise I can't figure out where more fits in other than as an ablative of means. Yes, decorae and palaestrae are genitive, and more is ablative of means.
James - Line 5, canam is either future indicative or present subjunctive, I'm assuming that it is hortatory (ie. present subjunctive), would I be correct in assuming this?
So I was reading lines 13 through 16, and I think that Horace put Priamus in the middle of the 4 lines to represent that Priamus was in the middle of all of the Greeks when he was led by Mercury. This has to be some kind of literary device, maybe? Yeah? I like this, James. Good eye.
BriAnne- James, I think canam is future indicative, since it's a hymn. "I will sing..." I could be wrong though. Right you are, BriAnne. Future Indicative!
Colleen - This poem was difficult, but I like James's point about the placement of Priamus. Odes 1.10 reminded me of Catullus's hymn to Diana. nice observation, Colleen.
11. Week 11 - 10/30 - 11/3
11. 1. Horace, Odes 1.2
Colleen - I had a couple of questions regarding translation: (1) Is ire (1.2.15) an ablative of means? I had trouble finding the definition. (2) I also don't understand how audiet relates to preparing for civil war or battles (1.2.21-23). I wonder who is going to help the Romans - maybe Octavian?
ire (1.2.15) is the present infinitive of eo. About the second question - what is the subject of audiet?
James - I think Garrison says that iuventus (line 24) is the subject of audiet? yes
Also I'm having trouble translating lines 5-8. I see that rediret (line 5) is subjunctive but not sure why it is used. As Garrison says, ne rediret depends on the idea of fear in terruit (line 5); the construction is an object clause of fearing. The god made people afraid that the age of Pyrrha might return.
In line 9, I'm having a hard time trying to find the subject of haesit. piscium genus (line 9), the race of fishes.
Both summa and genus can be nominative. I guess I just haven't found a good way to translate them. Scan line 9. You'll see that summa can't be nominative.
With the scansion, in line 24, are we supposed to take the "i" in iuventus as a "j" or make it an ellision? The "i" here is consonantal, preventing elision.
BriAnne- I am having a little trouble making sense of the last stanza. There are too many words I think. My main question hinges on imperi in line 26. Is that the noun for an order or some funky form of the verb impero? imperi is genitive singular of imperium. The genitive singular in long "i" for second declension nouns in -ius and -ium is regular until the first century AD. Other examples are -
- Vergilius, Vergili
- filius, fili
Also, I know this sounds kind of nerdy, but I noticed in my dictionary that natare can sometimes be used as "to fly" as well as "to swim." I thought this was kind of interesting considering the comparison he's making there with the fish and the birds and the flood and all. Not a bad observation. BTW, nerdy is good.
Kyle - What is the function of vitio(l. 23)? ablative with rara (youth thinned out by the fault of their parents).
Ashley- In l. 25, I believe that divum is a genitive adjective. Does it modify imperi or something else? divum probably is for deorum.
Where does dextera (l. 3) fit in with the rest of that sentence? dextera (ablative singular feminine) stands for the right hand (supply manu). It's an ablative of means with iaculatus.
12. Week 12 - 11/6 - 11/10
12. 1. Haggle over the POEM you want to present during Preparation Week
James - I found articles for 1.4, 1.9 and 1.14.
I am going to start the hagglin' with 1.14, thats the one that I would like to do. It seems controversial enough for my taste.
And I'll fight anyone for it, Tuesday after class, by the flagpole.
Colleen - James, don't worry; you won't have to fight me. I would like to do my project on Odes 1.9. If anyone already has his or her heart set on that one, let me know. Thanks.
BriAnne- man, none of these poems have very many articles on JSTOR. I call Odes 1.4.
Kyle - Well, while I don't like calling poems before class, if I don't take one I'm liable to wind up with one I don't want, so I choose 1.22.
Ashley- Is it just me, or do most of the articles that show up not really seem relevant to the poems you type in? I wanted 1.25, but all the articles on it seemed to pertain to some other poems. Maybe if I read the articles I would think differently. My second choice, though, would be 1.6.
Dustin- I totally agree with Ashley. I am interested in 1.13 but I could find no articles on JSTOR and I had difficulty with other links. I also would not mind doing 1.9, but Colleen seems to want that one and I won't fight her for it.
12. 2. Horace, Odes 1.18
BriAnne- I'm having some trouble scanning line 5. I don't think I'm missing any elisions, but there are still too many syllables. Is the meter just a little irregular? Did you get the elision between militiam and aut?Ashley- Is siccis (ln. 3) dative or ablative? I also can't figure out the case of levis (ln. 9)- it might help if I could figure out which noun it modifies. siccis is dative. The god ordained all things (to be) hard for teetolers. levis is nominative, modifying Euhius. See Garrison's note ad loc.
Colleen - I am very sick. These questions have helped with my translation. Thank you BriAnne, Ashley, and Dr. Clark. Colleen, you have my sympathy. I am ill too. Somone should sacrifice a cock to Asclepius as we look forward to being together next Tuesday.
Dustin - In line 12 is frondibus an ablative of means? yes, modifying obsita
12. 3. Horace, Odes 1.20
13. Week 13 - 11/13 - 11/17
13. 1. Horace, Odes 1.29
James - In line 2 paras means "you prepare" but I can find anything that complements with it. What is he preparing for? I'm pretty sure he is preparing to fight or conquer the east, but where is that in the latin? paras has a direct object, viz. acrem militiam (you are preparing keen soldiering, i.e. a tough campaign, for ...).
13. 2. Horace, Odes 1.30
13. 3. Catullus 80
Kyle - Is mane(l. 3) an imperitive (imperAtive; think of imperare), or is it something else that I missed? Also, this poem is really gross. mane is not an imperative. If it were (from maneô, manêre), the a would be short and the e would be long; scansion shows this isn't so. mâne is an adverb meaning "in the morning."13. 4. Catullus 97
James - Ahh good old Catullus and his dirtier words. Brings back good memories.But as for grammar....
In line 3 and 4, I'm not seeing a verb. I understand what is being said, but is there an understood verb ?
Kyle - I think we have to understand a few ests, two in line 3 and one in line 4. P.S. Dr. Clark is right: this is the worst poem yet. I think I'm going to go brush my teeth now. Right, Kyle, on all points. On the other hand, we appreciate the compelling lesson about the importance of flossing.
Colleen - I was wondering if there is any speculation as to who Aemilius is; Garrison doesn't list him in Appendix A. I understand that he could very well be a fictional character, though.
14. Week 14 - 11/27 - 12/1
14. 1. Horace, Odes 1.37
James: Garrison says that "only in Horace" there is an imperfect indicative with dum. I forget why that is a big deal. Can anyone help?
Also in Line 21, there is a ut clause, but I'm not sure what kind it is. I know that Ceasar wants to put chains on a "doomed monster", so is that purpose? daret ut fatale monstrum - purpose, for sure.
Colleen - I found Odes 1.37 difficult. I hypothesize that the ut clause in line 21 is a purpose clause. I wanted to make sure that the gerundives in the first couple lines of the poem are gerundives of obligation. I looked in Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar to review, and that was the only reasonable explanation I found. Could you provide the reference you found in Allen and Greenough? (section number(s) rather than page)
Kyle - I thought that what you say are gerundives were gerunds, but now that I look at it again, I see that pulsanda(l. 2) could not be a gerund because it cannot fit into the context of the sentence as a noun. Those are gerundives of necessity after all. Thanks, Colleen. Good observations, Kyle and Colleen. Also, pulsanda with its short a ending could not be any form of the gerund, which declines only in the oblique cases of the neuter second declension.
BriAnne- James, the ut clause gave me trouble too. Garrison says that Caesar is the subject, and that's just crazy, considering that he is 4 lines away. Definitely made for a frustrated BriAnne. I can see now how it might be a purpose clause, but I thought it might be kind of a funky clause of fearing, only minus the verb of fearing?? I'm pretty sure you can't even have that, but it might be similar? I only say that because of the noun timores, so "the true fear that Caesar may throw her into chains"? I'm probably completely off. Interesting semantic conjectures, BriAnne, but the ut clause at lines 20 f. is simply final, i.e. purpose.
Colleen - Section 500 in Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar covers the topic of gerundives. However, now I see that I was mistaken. Only neuter gerundives are used impersonally. The gerundives here are used as described in 500.2, not 500.3.
14. 2. Horace Odes 1.33
Colleen - Peccet (line 9) is a subjunctive, but I'm not sure how it is used here. I think it conveys potential. Any other ideas?
BriAnne - Colleen, I had trouble with that whole part too. I know theres something going on with the quam that I feel like, if I knew what it was, it would help a lot.
Kyle - BriAnne and Colleen, quam is a comparative form used with prius two lines before; I think the meaning is something like "A would sooner happen than B." I hope that helps.
Colleen - Kyle, you beat me. I was just going to post: My best guess remains that the subjunctive peccet (line 9) expresses potential; maybe the quam (line 9) indicates a "rather than" idea with prius (line 7).
Great thinking on the prius ... quam issue. Have a look at Allen and Greenough sections 434, 550, and 551a.-b.
James - I'm having trouble finding a good translation of torret in line 6. Garrison suggests something like "burn"?
Dustin: torret comes from the verb torreo torrere which means to burn or scorch. So it would translate he burns.
Colleen - Dustin is right. Catullus and Horace have both used torret (line 6) to describe burning love. I think Amor (line 6) is the subject, though.
Ashley- I also think that amor is the subject, but I'm still having trouble putting that together. Is the love burning for Cyrus? Or is the love of Cyrus burning? Garrison says that Cyri is objective genitive, so I'm guessing the latter.
15. Semester Projects
Ashley's Project
BriAnne's Project
Colleen's Project
Dustin's Project
James's Project
Kyle's Project
16. Final Exam
Essays to be posted no later than 9 a.m., Thursday, 14 DecemberAshley's Final
BriAnne's Final
Colleen's Final
Dustin's Final
James's Final
Kyle's Final
