Latin 416A - Spring 2007

 Contents 

1. Week I 1/8 - 1/12
2. Week II 1/15 - 1/19
2. 1. Aeneid 1
3. Week III 1/22 - 1/26
3. 1. Aeneid 2
4. Week IV 1/29 - 2/2
4. 1. Aeneid 3
5. Week V 2/5 - 2/9
6. Week VI 2/12 - 2/16
7. Week VII 2/26 - 3/2
8. Week VIII 3/5 - 3/9
9. Week IX 3/12 - 3/16
10. Week X 3/19 - 3/23
11. Week XI 3/26 - 3/30
12. Week XII 4/2 - 4/8
13. Week XIII 4/9 - 4/13
14. Week XIV 4/16 - 4/20
15. Week XV 4/23 - 4/27

For each week of the course, all students should submit at least one question or observation relevant to our study of Latin Lyric Poetry. Some of these weekly contributions may consist of responding to the questions and observations of others in the class. There may also be specific questions posted for students to respond to in a given week.

Important: Please Begin each of your questions, observations, and responses with your first name.

1. Week I 1/8 - 1/12

2. Week II 1/15 - 1/19

2. 1. Aeneid 1

James -
I'm having some trouble with the first clause on page 31. invectus aperto flectit equos curruque volans dat lora secundo (Line 155 - 156)

The subject is from 155 genitor , and the "obident regins" is ablative, it just seems like there are too many verb forms. invectus aperto are verb forms, and flectit is the main verb. But how do you translate invectus aperto?

The conjunctions in lines 155-156 are pretty interesting. The basic structure is postquam genitor flectit equos curruque dat lora. So the postquam clause has two finite verbs, flectit and dat; and on the flectit side there are two participles modifying genitor, prospiciens and invectus; and on the dat side one participle, volans, again modifying genitor. Translating from curruque (line 156), we could say "and flying along he gives the reins to his following chariot." At line 155,  we can take caeloque invectus aperto as "and conveyed (i.e. riding) in open sky (he turns his horses)...."

Kyle - Is citius (line 142) a comparative adverb?  Does dicto citius mean something like "more quickly than his speech?"

BriAnne - Kyle, thats how I read citius. Basically it's saying that the seas were calm and everything before he was even done talking.

I had a little trouble with domos in line 140. I know it's accusative, so I just took it as in apposition with saxa. Is that pretty much right?

pretty much.

3. Week III 1/22 - 1/26

3. 1. Aeneid 2

Kyle - I'm having trouble putting line 228 together.  I don't understand how a perfect passive participle like suffusa can take an object like oculos.

Clyde points out in his note ad loc. that oculos can be taken as accusative of respect or as object of suffusa, which he describes as a reflexive verb. I think he confuses the issue by calling suffusa reflexive. It really has middle voice force here. Have a look at the reference he gives to his Appendix (115, 2, a; 309).

Ashley- I took it to mean that the oculos were filling (suffusa) with lacrimis.

Dustin-In line 196 I'm having difficulty translating abeuntibus. I know it deals with deaparting but I do not recognize the dative or ablative ending on the verb.

Kyle - Thats a present participle.  I remember it because the "nt" in the middle is just like the "nt" at the end of the word "present."  I know that's kind of lame, but it's worked for me so far.

4. Week IV 1/29 - 2/2

4. 1. Aeneid 3

Hey guys, just for purposes of clarity, when citing lines in the Aeneid it's best to include the book number. We may have occasion to cite a line or lines from other books, even though our focus for any given week will be on one specific book of the poem.

Dustin: I had difficulty trying to translate fabor in 1:261.  I know that it is first person passive, and I think it may deal with fate, but I am uncertain.

Kyle - Fabor comes from for, fari, fatus.  It means "to speak" or "to say."

James - This might be kinda of late for any help, but line 1.288 magno demissum nomen Iulo is giving me some trouble. What is demissum modifying?

demissum modifies nomen, which in turn is in appostion to Julius. "Julius, a name sent down (i.e. handed down) from great Julus."

Ashley- Is there supposed to be an implied verb in 3.228? Supply est, as Clyde says.

And where does dedere fit in in line 3.238? dedere is an alternative form for dederunt (perfect active indicative 3p of do, dare, dedi, datum. "They gave a sound."

James - I have a question for line 3.226 with alas, is that accusative and if it is, why? I thought it might be some kind of accusative of wing formation?? alas is accusative, direct object of quatiunt. "They shake their wings."

And! I think I might have picked up on that -is ending that takes the place of -es.  Everytime Virgil uses the word sociis, is that supposed to be nominative? No. sociis is dative or ablative plural of socius, a second-declension noun. The alternative ending -is for -es is a third-declension pattern. One day I shall grasp this concept, but obviously it was not today.

BriAnne - I'm not sure what to do with moenibus in 3.255. I kind of know what he's trying to say, but all I can come up with is "You surround the city having been given over by its walls."  And in 3.266, is placidi substantized, so that Anchises is addressing the gods as "gracious ones"? I also had trouble with terram altricem in 3.273. I think one of those accusatives is in apposition to the other, but I can't decide which is which.

5. Week V 2/5 - 2/9

James - I have a question about line 4.50. deos veniam. The grammar notes say "two accusative with a verb of asking". I'm not entirely sure what that means. I translated it something like "..You ask the favor of the gods..." The notes give a reference to Ap. 316, and it looks like the examples just translate one of the accusatives and the other modifiying it, so I guess what I did was correct?

I have one more question, I can't really tell if maeret is subjunctive in line 4.82. I'm pretty sure it isn't, but I just wanted to make sure.

Kyle - That's how I translated line 50.  Also, maeret is not subjunctive.  If it were, it would be maereat.

On a side note, Dido's speech (4.9-29) was really confusing.  It's neat that Vergil makes me feel as confused as Dido feels, whether intentionally or not.  I had an especially tough time translating line 11.  I just can't seem to put the thought together.  Pharr translates it, but that doesn't help me understand it.

6. Week VI 2/12 - 2/16

Kyle - What does mixti (IV.145) modify.  The only other thing around it is picti, but it modifies Agathyrsi.

mixti really modifies all three nouns in line 145, i.e. Cretes, Dryopes, and Agathyrsi. They're all mixed together circum altaria.

Ashley- In 4.515-16, now does amor come from a horse that has just been born?  Or do I have that completely wrong?

Yes, this is the only place in extant Latin that amor (= love-charm) is used in this sense. It seems to be a kind of tumor on the forehead of a newly-born foal. The mare tries to bite this off soon after birth, but if it can be secured before she can do this, it can be used to make an effective love-charm.

Dustin- In 4.509 the word crinis is an object of the middle participle, but I am having difficulty translating it.

James - So in line 4.519 the phrase

testatur moritura deos et conscia fati sidera

Are fati and sidera subjects of the verb testatur? I'm having trouble seeing what is the subject in this phrase. I get the jist of the meaning, but not sure of the correct grammar. testatur is third-person singular, with implied subject Dido. sidera is direct object, along with deos.

7. Week VII 2/26 - 3/2

Kyle - What are habeto (V.310) and abito (V.314)?  I know they come from verbs, but I just don't know what form they are.

BriAnne - habeto and abito, as well as audito (5.316), are all singular future imperatives, according to the grammar index. The first two I get, but I don't know what audito is doing there. The sentence seems to function perfectly fine with out it. Good, BriAnne, only audito at 316 isn't the future imperative but just a perfect passive participle.

Ashley- In 5.436, does sub go with vulnere or malae? vulnere. sub can take an ablative or an accusative. malae is neither.

8. Week VIII 3/5 - 3/9

James - I'm having trouble translating an ablative absolute. In line 6.22 stat ductis sortibus urna . Pharr says that ductis sortibus is an ablatlive absolute. I understand what the point is, but still am having trouble making sense of the Latin. See Kyle's note below.

Ashley- I can't figure out the meaning of fanti (line 6.46). present participle of for, fari.

Kyle - James, I had trouble with this one too.  I looked at the fold out vocabulary, and I saw that ducere can also mean "to draw out," so I think it means "with the lots having been drawn out." yes

Kyle - I just want to clarify something.  Illum (VI.110) does refer to Anchises, right.  It never says it outright, so I wanted to make sure.

9. Week IX 3/12 - 3/16

James - I have a few questions about the grammar:

Line 2.56 staret I konw it is subjunctive, but not sure why. staret is subjunctive in the apodosis of an unreal condition. "Troy would now be standing if ...."

Line 2.63  visendi Its a gerund, so says Pharr, but I'm having trouble translating it. "because of their eagerness of gazing", i.e. their eagerness to look upon ....

Kyle - I, too, have a question.  What does sortiti (II.18) modify? It modifies the implied subject of includunt (line 19) (they, i.e. the Danaî, the Greeks).


Ashley- I have a comment about the Fitzgerald translation.  I think I died a little inside when I read this: “her queenly tresses blazed, her jewelled crown blazed… No one could hold that sight anything but hair-raising.”  Please tell me this wasn’t a literal translation…

Dustin: I am having difficulty with the qui clause 2.59. I think venientibus is a present participle of venio, but I am having trouble putting it all together. Good question. venientibus refers to the shepherds, so we can understand 2.59 this way: ... qui (i.e. juvenem) se  ignotum (eis) venientibus ultro / ... obtulerat = "who had presented himself to them (i.e. the shepherds) as they came.

Kyle - Ponti (II.110) is genitive, right?  So what does it modify? See BriAnne's answer below.

Dustin: I was expecting Aeneas not to have any other interaction with Dido after Aeneas purified himself in his trip to the underworld. I found it interesting that Mack made the parallel between Danae and Dido as what would have happened if Aeneas had not interferred with Dido's city.  I just found this connection particulary interesting.  I also thought his argument for the use of the muse Erato representing Virgil's love of his country was very interesting.  It made me develop more of an appreciation for the catalogue once I understood how the Roman audience would have connected with it.

BriAnne - I know that oracula (2.114) is accusative, but I'm confused about its use here. I see it as either accusative of motion towards (with mittimus) or as the direct object of scitatum. Can a supine showing purpose take a direct object? oracula is indeed direct object of the supine scitatum.

And Kyle, I think ponti is modifying hiems, in this case meaning "storm." So it's like "the harsh storm of the sea." At least that's how I translated it...

Ashley- Is Argolica in 2.119 an ablative of separation? Argolica modifies anima (line 118), which is ablative of means with litandum.

10. Week X 3/19 - 3/23

Ashley- This is probably obvious, but I can't seem to figure out where fusi in 2.252 comes from. fundo, fundere, fudi, fusum

Kyle - Does anyone know what infelix (II.245) modifies? monstrum

Dustin: I found the simile used at the death of Laocoon interesting.  I thought the irony of the priest reaction toward death being similar to the reaction of a bull at the sacrificial altar to be an intriquing.  I do not know how I missed that when I read Fitzgerald's translation.

James - I'm having trouble with these pronouns. I know we went over them in class last week, but I'm still not feeling comfortable with them. For example in line II.275 qui. Its nominative, but still I'm confused with its usage in the sentence. subject of redit

Ashley- Maybe I'm trying to English-ize (anglicize) this too much, but how does morte (2.533) fit in?  It's ablative, correct?  And media modifies it?  Is it like "mid-death"? media in morte = "in the midst of death"

Dustin: On line 520 the sentence aut quo rusis I have had a lot of difficulty trying to translate.  I think it is from ruo.

James - I have a question about an ut clause. Line 2.531. Not sure what kind it is.

Kyle - Since evasit (II.531) is indicative, then that rules out purpose, result and any other subjunctive clauses.  I think that it's temporal.  "When he came out before the eyes of his parents." Recte, Kyle!

BriAnne?- I have no idea what to do with aevo in line 509. I just can't see a place where either a dative or ablative would be needed there.
aevo (ablative) can be understood with trementibus - "the old man places arms, long unused, around his shoulders which were trembling with age."

11. Week XI 3/26 - 3/30

Ashley- In 2.611, does sedibus mean a shrine?  Like, Neptune is standing on the shrine and shaking things up from there? No, Vergil means Neptune overwhelms the whole city from its foundations.

Kyle - I'm not sure about Ashley's question, but I have a comment about Book 9.  "This urge to action, do the gods instil it,/ Or is each man's desire a god to him,/ Euryalus?" (Fitz. IX.252-254).  I think that's an interesting point in our ever-relavant discussion of how Vergil uses the gods.


James - I still believe that the gods did not really have to interfer. Everything would have happened to a certain extent, but Virgil uses the gods as a poetic tool. A tool to make the poem more artistic and aesthetic to readers.

Dustin: Also in book 9 the only reason why Turnus survived was because he was granted strength from Juno.  However, if he had not been in such a rage he would have opened the door.  Therefore, it appears again that the gods interaction was essential.  

I also have a question about grammar. Line 564. quae what kind of pronoun is that? interrogative adjective with copia

BriAnne - in lines 2.561-562, the phrase ut regem aequaevum crudeli vulnere vidi vitam exhalentem gave me some trouble. i just couldn't seem to fit it all together. i think its something about someone "breathing life from bloody wounds"?? would that make vulnere an ablative of source? or separation? I'm still meditating on this. There is such a thing as a sucking wound, from which air escapes. Neoptolemus drove his sword up to the hilt in Priam's side, so the old man's lung(s) could certainly have been penetrated (cf. A. 2.552 f.).As for the specific semantic information conveyed by the ablative, could we say it expresses the way by which? Some Latinists, including Clyde, recognize this category of meaning.

Ashley- How does virum fit into ln 2.782?  I know it's genitive with opima, which modifies... arva?  (Lydian fertile fields of men?) Lydius (781) modifies Thybris (782). So the Lydian Tiber flows with gentle progress through fertile fields belonging to men.

James - Since we were discussing the ambiguity of the gods, there is an example of this in our lines that we are translating. (2.761 - 2.766). The Greeks are sacking the temple of Juno, so wouldn't that make Juno more mad at the Greeks and not the Trojans?

BriAnne - What are Quaerenti and ruenti in line 771? I've been working on that one sentence for like, half an hour, and I just can't figure it out. Clyde's note doesn't help at all, either. Quaerenti and ruenti are present participles (from quaerere and ruere) and modify mihi (773). "Creusa's phantom appeared to me as I was seeking (her) and rushing endlessly in the houses of the city."

Dustin: I was interested in the argument of whether Aeneas has become Achilles or Turnus is the new Achelles that came from the Sybil in book 6.  I personally think that they both are the new Achilles, Aeneas because of the armor given to him crafted by Vulcan.  The rage of Turnus is similar to the wrath of Achilles, I would think Aeneas being overcome with wrath at the end of the epic and slaying Turnus would also represent Aeneas as Achilles.  However, as we learned in book 9 all the characters tend to represent each other, which could possibly mean they both represent Achilles.

Kyle - James has a point, but I think that furor has given Juno tunnel vision.  Maybe she can only focus on Aeneas.

12. Week XII 4/2 - 4/8

James - There is one crazy sentence on lines 4.307 - 4.308.

Yes, tenet is the verb for amor, dextera, and Dido. But tenet is active, so we understand "Neither our love nor our right hand given in the past nor Dido (doomed) to die by a cruel death holds you."

Ashley- What is the meaning of fando (4.333)? fanda is gerund from for, fari, here used as ablative of means. So Aeneas says, "... you who are able to enumerate very many things by speaking." I sense some pique in these words of our hero.

Kyle - In Book X, Mezentius was not the same guy that Evander described earlier.  He was brave and honorable, even more than Aeneas.

BriAnne - Unfortunately, I'll be missing class today due to a migraine headache, which also prevented me from getting much of the assignment done. Sorry, and I hope everyone has a great break. I'm going back to bed in hopes the room stops throbbing. See you in a week!

13. Week XIII 4/9 - 4/13

James - I'm having trouble with a sentence. Line 4.452.
Pharr glosses it as subjunctive of purpuse. So quo is an adverb and inceptum is the subject of the first verb. But I'm still having trouble translating it.

The rule is that when a purpose clause contains a comparative, as magis here, quo is used instead of ut. The relative is actually ablative of means. Translating tightly we could say: "That thereby she may accomplish her design and leave the light."

Dustin: James I translated it as she would accomplish a great undertaking and desert the light.  I used would to as a purpose, but that may be incorrect.

Kyle - I can't find a verb in the simile on lines 469-473.  Can someone help me with that? videt (4.469). It has agmina (same line) as direct object, then two indirect statements at 4.470.

Ashley- Kyle, is there one?  It seems like it's not a full sentence, like it's just connected to what's happening in the sentence before it?

BriAnne - I was so confused about nigrescere in line 454. I thought at first maybe it was a historical infinitive? Thats my best guess. Now we know it's the verb in an indirect statement.


Kyle - Have we already done lines 504-553?  It seemed really familiar.  All the same, I had a lot of problems with IV.538-539.  I think I could get it if I knew what the subject was.  Can anyone say?

Yes, A. 4.504-553 was assigned for 15 February. My mistake. But as you suggest, it won't hurt to have a closer look at it. About Kyle's question on 538 f., juvat is impersonal, or to put the point another way, an infinitive clause is subject of juvat. What makes the analysis even thornier is that the reader must supply some words in that clause. See Clyde's note ad loc. Also note that ante (538) is adverbial. A fairly tight translation beginning with Quiane -- "Because it pleases them that they were relieved previously by my help and because gratitude for my former deed stands securely (bene) among them (being) mindful?"

Dustin: I was just curious if there was a parallel to Camilla in the Illid, and if there was did she die a similar death.  I also found her death very interesting how Arruns killed her with no honor and how he died a very similar death.

BriAnne?-I was confused right off the bat in lines 4.506-507. Intenditque...et fronde coronat. Is the que...et there "both... and"? I can't find anything for que to connect intendit with, since all the verby-type things before it are participles and such.

Ashley- I'm not going to be able to make it to class today, unfortunately.  I'm being plagued with a giant headache and sick feelings, most likely stress-related.  I'll try to pull myself together this weekend.  See you all next week.

14. Week XIV 4/16 - 4/20

James - I'm having trouble with the first couple of lines on page 316. (6.140-141)

Good question. Hint: There are two clauses here. Take ante with quam and so read antequam.

BriAnne - I seem to have contracted some sort of sore-throat coughy congestiony thing from my lovely roommate. For all of your sakes, I'm going to stay in bed today. I hate to miss class, because I really enjoyed the article for today. I thought the author's style was interesting, he kept relating events and words and phrases of Vergil's to modern events and people, JFK, Martin Luther King, Jr, etc. Also, I thought the part comparing Camilla to Dido and even Euryalus was pretty neat as well. See you all on thursday!

Kyle - James, the subject is qui.  Pharr says that it is indefinite, so I guess we should understand it as aliqui.

Ashley- In 6.127, does atri modify Ditis?

Dustin: I think that atri does modify Ditis I translated it as the door of black Dis lies open night and day.

BriAnne - At 6.131, what is dis? My only guess is that maybe it's some kind of shortened version of divus? I don't think thats right though... ablative plural of deus; used here as ablative of source with geniti.

15. Week XV 4/23 - 4/27

Kyle - After reading Book XII, I don't know how I feel about Aeneas and Turnus.  I want to like Aeneas, but the last scene of the poem ends on a low note for him.